Comments on: Libertarianism versus Workers’ Rights in Wisconsin http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/ Informed reflection on the events of the day Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.23 By: Teaching the Classics: Reflections of an Ex-Marxist Wannabe « Jeffrey C. Goldfarb's Deliberately Considered http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/comment-page-1/#comment-17096 Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:38:16 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=2680#comment-17096 […] the nature of the American party system and for contemporary political debate, such as the struggle over workers’ rights in […]

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By: Eric Friedman http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/comment-page-1/#comment-5615 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:46:27 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=2680#comment-5615 Scott’s post appropriately ends with the word “just.” Yes, a teacher should earn $50,000 to avoid slipping beneath the poverty line. I drive past my neighbor’s window at night (she teaches 5th grade) and I can see her at her desk grading papers and preparing lessons into the hours when most people are comfortably in their beds watching television and falling asleep. Teachers work long hours and have tremendous responibility. The income gap in the United States is widening to absurd proportions. Beneath the attacks on teachers is a haze of false consciousness. My question becomes: Why aren’t those on Wall Street who concocted elaborate, unethical schemes to rip off public pension funds going to court and jail? Do we dare, as a society, start to answer that one? No, we demonize teachers, scapegoating them for the nation’s economic ills.

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By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/comment-page-1/#comment-5603 Thu, 24 Feb 2011 18:48:35 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=2680#comment-5603 Certainly it could be said that public-sector unions are not without unintended consequences; and certainly they result in employees making, in both earnings and benifits, than they would have otherwise. But I feel in many ways they have become the scapegoat for a much wider complex of problems; for instance, the loss of tax revenue due to “the Great Recession,” a problem that was certainly not caused by public sector unions.

The attack on public school teachers in particularly disconcerting. Fox New in particular has inflated Wisconsin teacher earnings (as discussed on PolitiFact):

“On his show the following night (Feb. 22) Bolling said in the numbers he had posted the night before, “our math was off a bit.” A new graphic, he said, showed the unweighted average for Wisconsin teachers for the 2010 school year: a $51,000 salary, plus $30,000 worth of benefits (for a total of $81,000 worth of compensation). For an average private sector worker, he said, the salary in 2010 was $46,000 with $20,000 worth of benefits (total compensation $66,000)”

Is a teaching job not worth at least $50,000 a year provided the teacher is doing their job well? Yes, there are issues with teacher’s unions, but at the same time teaching at a public high school or grade school is an extremely demanding job. Meanwhile, the average Wall Street bonus, just bonus mind you, is $120,000. One might argue that Wall Street does not use public money. But this is by no means certain, given the recent bailout and the fact that Wall Street banks can use the publicly subsidized Federal Reserve as their piggy bank, not to mention that the Great Recession began with Wall Street in the first instance. American corporations receive billions in subsidies from the government each year, some of this money actually subsidizing the export of jobs overseas. Attempts to end these kinds of subsidies have not yet been successful; for one, corporations have billionaires such as the Koch brothers on their side. It is not necessarily fair to criticize public sector unions has being too “powerful” when you can see the kind of money their up against.

But lets return to the issue at hand. Do public-sector unions disproportionately inflate the salaries of government workers; PolitiFact offers evidence to the contrary:

“A report titled “Out of Balance” by two University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee professors for the National Institute of Retirement Security, whose board is largely composed of representatives of public employee pensions, found that when “comparable earning determinants,” such as education, are considered, state employees typically earn salaries 11 percent lower than their private sector counterparts. When you consider total compensation — salary plus benefits — the deficit dropped to 6.8 percent (because public employees generally get better benefits packages than those in the private sector).

Another report, by the liberal Economic Policy Institute, found that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8 percent less in total compensation than comparable private-sector workers.”

PolitiFact concluded their article by saying:

“On average, Wisconsin teachers are far more highly educated than the average worker. People with higher levels of education tend to make more.” http://tinyurl.com/47688kf

And shouldn’t they? I don’t think a university professor would disagree.

My particular qualms aside, and how much other public employees should be making is perhaps another issue, I would sum up by stating that public-sectors workers have agreed to make sacrifices, stopping short of giving up their collective bargaining rights. The governor of Wisconsin has indeed stated they all must give up something so that the state budget can be balanced; however, I have heard very little about what sacrifices big businesses are being asked to make, higher-taxes for example, nor have I heard the governor himself state that he would agree to a cut in his own salary or benifits. Such a state of affairs can hardly be considered just.

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By: Michael Corey http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/comment-page-1/#comment-5601 Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:39:31 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=2680#comment-5601 Jeff suggests that the more fundamental issue at stake in Wisconsin may be stated in this manner, “It is not about the spoils but about a principled choice between individual liberty and the primacy of property on one side, and worker collective action and the struggle for social justice, one the other.”

I’ve seen the Jonah Goldberg piece before, but not in juxtaposition to the Rand Paul petition request. I saw it in the L. A. Times where it was positioned next to an ad for Target department stores. Goldberg’s opinion piece has been pushed on many venues, including the American Enterprise Institute’s web site where Goldberg is listed as a fellow.
The debate on public sector unions has appeared in numerous locations. For instance, the Metro NY Labor Communications Council ran two perspectives on the issue: a pro one by Saru Jayarman, a CUNY faculty member who has also been a labor organizer; and a con written by Daniel DiSalvo who at the time was an assistant professor of political science at CCNY. Jayarman commented on DiSalvo’s short previously published piece which concludes, “Ultimately, what citizens’ tax dollars buy us depends, in part, on the number of public servants and how much they are paid. The public should be fair to them. But they also need to be fair to the public.” Jayarman concludes her piece by writing, “DiSalvo is right about one thing – in the long run, public workers will be unable to maintain good wages and benefits if private sector workers are losing them. But parity can be achieved in two ways: by bring the top down, or by bringing the bottom up. The choice we make will determine the kind of society that we become.”

A much more robust paper on the issue, “The Trouble with Public Sector Unions,” was written by Daniel DiSalvo and published on the website of National Affairs in issue Number 5, Fall 2010. As part of its mission, “National Affairs” will publish essays that bring to bear hard facts and figures and employ the social sciences, even as we remain aware of their limitations. It also means thinking more deeply, and we will publish essays that look to the philosophical foundations of our public life. And it means thinking constructively, so that we will publish not only diagnoses, but, when possible, proposals for plausible remedies.”

In my opinion, DiSalvo’s lengthy essay is worth considering. It examines public sector unions over the past sixty or so years, and as you might expect is explicit about from where his information comes. http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions. DiSalvo does offer analysis and draws conclusions some of which are disturbing if true, “Taken together, the intrinsic advantages that public-sector unions enjoy over private-sector advocacy groups (including private-sector unions) have given organized government laborers enormous power over government at the local, state, and federal levels; to shape public finances and fiscal policy; and to influence the very spirit of our democracy. The results, unfortunately, have not always been pretty.” I would like to see others work through the DiSalvo essay is see if there are flaws in his data or analysis, if not, then there are issues which must be addressed.

Tocqueville’s concepts might apply here. Have public-sector unions well-founded upon the principles of self-interest rightly understood devolved to self interest at the expense of public interests? Are we seeing associational tensions being played out to try to rebalance the situation?

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By: Iris http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/02/libertarianism-versus-workers%e2%80%99-rights-in-wisconsin/comment-page-1/#comment-5589 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:24:39 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=2680#comment-5589 How true. Walker fancies himself to be a great revolutionary as he revealed to “David Koch.” For those who don’t have the time to listen for 20 minutes, I feel the most revealing part comes right before the end when Walker doesn’t want to hang up before offering his belief in how momentous his own actions are. To listen to the call (if you haven’t already), click on link below:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/scott-walker-buffalo-beast-phone-prank_n_827058.html

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